Date Of Baptism

Discussion in 'Church Records' started by Bonzo Dog, Jun 17, 2017.

  1. Bonzo Dog

    Bonzo Dog Still the Mad Scientist?

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    The screen shot is taken from the registers of the Leicestershire parish of Wymeswold, available on FMP. The baptism was performed in 1581 and my interest is in the middle entry. It clearly records the baptism of Edward Leake, son of Edward Leake, but when in 1581? According to the transcript the date is 24 December, but I'm at a loss to see how this date was determined.

    Screen Shot 2017-06-17 at 11.00.39.png
     
  2. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    Frustratingly, I can't access FMP at the moment. I can't see a date in the above image... could it be recorded elsewhere on the page?
     
  3. Bonzo Dog

    Bonzo Dog Still the Mad Scientist?

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    The only dates on the page are the year heading. The date transcript was found in a Word document available to download from, if memory serves me correctly, the Wymeswold village site.
     
  4. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    upload_2017-6-17_12-13-30.png

    XX1111 of (Latin dir?) Deceb - well that what it looks like to me;)
     
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  5. Bonzo Dog

    Bonzo Dog Still the Mad Scientist?

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    The only way to access these 16th century record images is by browsing the registers from page 1 (1560!!) as someone has understandably decided that indexing the records would be quite some task.
     
  6. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    They are indexed on FMP - I put in:- surname Leake, bap year 1581 and Wymeswold.
    It did not work with Edward as the name is transcribed as Edwardus father's first name Edvardi (as per the entry)
     
  7. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    I think it says
    xxiiij - which is 24 in Latin
    die - which would appear to mean 'of'
    deceb - which, presumably, is December abbreviated
    and I didn't know that until I found this rather useful site
    Code:
    https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/manuscriptsandspecialcollections/researchguidance/datingdocuments/latin.aspx
     
  8. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Ann. (And 1581 is clearly written on the same page above this block of entries.)

    It was very common for words to be abbreviated in old documents, and you can tell where this has been done by some particular mark in the text. In this case the line above deceb shows that the m has been omitted.

    Most of the names of the months on this page have been shortened (in full this one would be decembris), but there don't appear to be any abbreviation marks for a simple shortening, only when letters have been omitted from the middle of the word.
     
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  9. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    I too agree with Ann & Arthur. Compare the last 5 entries for 1580 which are for October (twice), November, December and January.
     
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  10. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

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    Me too. 24 in roman numerals, die = day, deceb = December, 1581.

    Janet
     
  11. Bonzo Dog

    Bonzo Dog Still the Mad Scientist?

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    Raises a question mark about the functionality of their tick box for name variations. :mad:

    A big thank you to everyone for your invaluable input. C|:-)
     
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  12. Sis

    Sis Rootles out resources!

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    Useless, I'd say!:mad:
     
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  13. gillyflower

    gillyflower Always caring about others

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    Was he Catholic? I ask as I too have had some problems with Latin names. Does Edvardi mean singular or just one? and Edwardus son of or second - or something like that. Mind you saying all that I found a Jacobus for James and his father certainly wasn't James - it was Patrick!
     
  14. Bonzo Dog

    Bonzo Dog Still the Mad Scientist?

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    No, his family were all C of E. Some vicars of the period, and later, liked to use Latin just to confuse the likes of thee and me. ;) Even came across some entries earlier this year where the dates were entered as Calends and Nones (1st and 9th I think).
     
  15. gillyflower

    gillyflower Always caring about others

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    Yes you think they would stick to English.
     
  16. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    Classical Latin doesn't have the letter w, and the nearest equivalent was v, but late Latin as found in registers quite often uses w if it's part of an English name - it's probably only a few vicars who felt the need to change it.

    As taught in schools in the 1970s, v was actually pronounced w. This may be because in some Latin scripts there isn't really any distinction between u and v.

    As for the names, they usually follow one of the standard patterns of Latin nouns, where the ending changes not just according to number (singular or plural), but also its position in the sentence and relation to other words. A different ending is also used for "of" and sometimes for other senses.

    Eduardus/Edwardus/Edvardus is the form used for the subject of a sentence - in this case the person being baptised. Eduardi etc means "of Edward", so is the name of his father. (Technically Eduardi could also mean "Edwards", ie than one, but that doesn't really make sense here.)
    :eek: I remember a bit of a rhyme from my Latin teacher:
    March, July, October, May
    Have Ides the ...th, Nones the ...th day​
    I think that's how it went, but I've only a vague memory of what those dates were (7th? 15th?), and still less of what they were for the other 8 months. Maybe the rhyme had more lines that I've forgotten? And just to confuse, I think they used to define dates as so many days before the Ides, Nones etc.o_O
     
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